I like the VR starbase changes. It can even make sense in reasoning as taking such a huge structure through phase causes major issues and can be compounded with multiply jumps in a short time. Whether it will fix the balance issue remains to be seen.

As for phase missiles, well that is a whole different can of worms.

Phase missiles where nerfed when rebellion came out

1. Max upgraded phase missiles did decreased damage or take additional techs to upgrade (depending on reb or loy)

2. Fighters ceased to use phase missiles resulting in teching it benefiting less one less type of unit

3. There are more things that give phase missile block (advent culture for example)

4. Other weapon types in general have additional tech levels without decreasing the strength of preexisting techs.

Btw, is it just me who has noticed that VR culture rate gets pretty much raped when upgrading techs? I don't know which tech it is but the culture goes down to 0.5 with 1 structure...(Not sure what caused it, so you might have fixed it in this patch)

Guess the days of Corvette spamming will return...

Interesting to see no one is weighing in on Wail changes.  I suppose shock hasn't worn off yet

All adjacent planets being affected regardless of ownership is a huge tactical revision, and will cause a new trend in adopting AR play styles.  The fact that wail had gotten to the point of being universally banned is a testament to how dynamically an impact it had on some games, but now perhaps it can be more mainstream again. 

Specifically in random map multiplayer games, losing a high pop planet is a considerable trade off depending of course on the layout of the adjacent planets, the degree to which AR (and opponents) would suffer.  Particularly with enough connected to a choke.  This, imo, is more than ample justification to roll the dice so to speak in playing, and going up against AR.  There are many suitable counters to a wail "situation", but most players simply categorically throw it under the bus.

The vulnerability of all connected planets now though poses a huge caveat, and I'm anxious to run through it in some games.

I am sorry, I dont understand what you mean. Could you please explain?

I hereby recommend the following possible nerfs to phase missiles:

IDEA 1: The brutal way:

--- NERF Phase missiles hard, and I mean so hard that you can hear the Vasari scream in agony all the way back to Kron.

Question to the developers: What was your intention with the phase missile tech? Was it meant to be the bane of any Advent fleet? Or was it what I think/hope meant more as a bonus? Right now most ships die with shields close to full power. Was that your intention? Or was your intention to have some hull damage as a bonus before the shields fail? Basically the ship is damaged with active shields, but in most cases the shields of the ship have to be brought down before it can be destroyed. For example:(values simplyfied)

Normal attack to a ship with 2000 shield points and 1000 hull points.

2000 damage done, shield are down, no hull damage.... yet.

Phase Missile attack to the same ship:

2000 Phase Missile damage done, shields are down but due to shield piercing the ship has already taken 200 hull damage.

The current implementations seems to be arround 1500 shield points remaining when the hull dies to shield piercing missiles.

Change the piercing values such that its a bonus, nothing more nothing less.

Advantages of Idea 1: That would nearly certain fix the problem and is easy to implement. Values can be easily changed in the future, should they prove to weak one day. 

Disadvantage of Idea 1: Might have negative influence on Vasari TEC Balancing.... although I think Vasari are very deadly even without any phase missile tech.

IDEA 2: The medium hard way:

The most OP form of the phase missiles are the bombers. 30 Vasari Bomber wings are capable of doing damage superior to 80 TEC/Advent bomber wings.... for much lower cost. Now, I dont suggest giving phase weapons to fighters again... it is the same problem. So... either

a: Make bomber phase missiles have NO shield piercing effect at all

or

b: Make bombers have shield piercing phase missiles, BUT with CONSIDERABLE lower values than frigates and capital ships. Something like 4 stages:

Titan PM: Like now

Capital Ships PM: Slightly weaker

Orkulus PM: Like capital

Frigates PM: Slightly weaker than capital

Bomber PM: HARD NERF

Advantages of Idea 2: Vasari still have their high tech toy, but now at least their bombers are balanced.

Disadvantages of Idea 2: Lot of work to implement, cap ships + Titan + Orky might still kill anything with Advent markings way to quickly. Lots of work to balance all those values.

IDEA 3: Increase Phase Missile protection of Advent

1. Slight nerf to phase missiles to perfect TEC/Vasari Balancing

2. Give Advent a far higher phase missile block change. Spread it across the resarch tree to make it timely and costly.... punishing an Advent for not resarching them in time. Maximum block values should be:

Maximum phase missile block values:

Advent Loyalists without culture: 75 %

Advent Loyalists with culture: 95 %

Advent Rebels without culture: 65 %

Advent Rebels with culture: 85 %

(in the unlikely case those values are too high, they can be adjusted later. Keep in mind that you have to research a lot of stuff to have such high values. )

Research tree locations: Advent General:

General phase missile block - works always

No research = no phase missile block

Basic Shield Projection Level 1: no phase missile block

Basic Shield Projection Level 2: 5 % block

PsiTech Shield Emitters Level 1: 10 % block

PsiTech Shield Emitters Level 2: 15 % block

Potent Shield Generation Level 1: 25 % block

Potent Shield Generation Level 2: 35 % block

Raised Shield Harmonics Level 1: 50 % block

Raised Shield Harmonics Level 2: 65 % block - Possible Maximum for Advent Rebels without culture

This phase missile block works in culture only:

Unity Indoctrination  = No phase missile block

Zealous Worship Level 1: 67.5 % (65 % general block + 2.5 % in culture block)

Zealous Worship Level 2: 70 %

Unwavering Belief Level 1: 55 % block72.5 % block55 % block 55 % block

Unwavering Belief Level 2: 75 % block

Total Assimilation Level 1: 77.5 % block

Total Assimilation Level 2: 80 % block

Wall of Faith(culture resistance tech): Level 1: 82.5 % block

Wall of Faith(culture resistance tech): Level 2: 85 % block = Possible maximum for Advent Rebels in culture

Deliverance engine: No block for technology but what about giving the Deliverance engine a buff that gives 100 % phase missile block for 5 minutes in the gravity well that was hit? Would no doubt sell any Advent player I know to build the thing for a change.

Advent Loyalists Techs that further increase general Phase missile block:

Ancient Retribution: 90 % block (5 % block increase)

Advent Loyalists Techs that further increase  Phase missile block in culturein culture:

Global Unity Level 1: 92.5 % block (2.5 block increase)(2.5 % block increase) (2.5 % block increase)

Global Unity Level 2: 95 % block (2.5 block increase)

 

(2.5 % block increase)

 

Advantages of Idea 3:

Better gameplay.... right now it is 100 % certain that the Vasari has all phase missile upgrades. That makes having the anti tech an absolute necessity. Now if phase missiles werent so impressive anymore against fully researched block, the Vasari might consider other ways of teching up. Which in turn will make the Advent become overconfident until the Vasari can severerly punish that overconfidence again. It would add depth... you have to anticipate what your enemies is doing a bit more. Makes bomber spam a bit less viable, giving the other factions more breathing room to build something different instead of hoping on a miracle that those 60 fighter wings will stop those 40 phase missile bomber wings before they destroy everything.

Makes the culture resarch more viable.... the current phase missile block implemantation is not worth the money.

Makes "Raised Shield Harmonics" useful against Vasari..... instead of being mildy annoying to TEC or Advent only.

Makes the Motherships "Restore Shields" Ability actually useful against the Vasari. Right now, it is a total waste of XP points on it if you face an Vasari opponent.

Disadvantages of Idea 3: Lots of work to implement, Vasari bomber wing still very deadly against TEC. Adjusting of the values probably means that every mentioned research file has to be modified.

That values are of course up for further discussion... but please keep in mind that Advent

-- have less ships than Vasari

-- donts stand a remote change in late game when all your synergies are killed within 30 seconds

-- need to be capable of attacking a digged in Vasari with acceptable losses... high... but acceptable

If phase missiles are nerfed, and they surely need it, balancing would be vastly improved imho. Right now if the Vasari manages to survive to very late game Advent are simple screwed.

I for one absolutely love this change.  It keeps its destruction potential and in most cases greatly increases the cost of using it.  Although I suspect Shield Bestowal will become a very important tech for the Advent Rebels to keep their structures alive through a Wail.

Another thing that struck me is that you can avoid a lot of the stacking of these debuffs by using the Orkie in conjunction with a Kostura shot.  However that would require that you maintain a total of 16 labs which should push it to late game.  It also strikes me that this change is going to have a much greater affect on MP games where things happen very quickly.  In the SP games I've play using VR (and against the higher AI levels), I'm usually advancing pretty slowly from one planet to the next with my Orkie and fleet.  It probably takes me 10 minutes to take each planet, in which case the debuffs wouldn't stack anyways.

I really haven't heard anyone complain that Phase Missiles on Assailants are overpowered - its only the bombers.  If this is true, then maybe you could 1) nerf the damage output of the Vasari bombers or 2) buff Telekinetic Push against the Vasari.  Point 2 could be accomplished by changing it to do a percentage of total hull point of damage against strikecraft.  That way they would do more damage against the beefier Vasari bombers without becoming overpowered against the other races strikecraft.  Either of these changes could be made relatively easily.

Well I certainly agree it's primarily bombers that are the issue.  The problem is it would take a pretty substantial damage hit to bring vasari bombers in line with the other races.   If we use the assumption that assailants are balanced as our baseline, vasari bombers would need to take something like a 25-30% DPS reduction(down from 17*ish* per squad to around 12.5).

Seriously though, that is why assailants are balanced- they compensate for their superior weapon techs by having 25-30% less DPS per supply then their nearest analogue(the Javelis).  By contrast  Vasari bombers have pretty much the same DPS as the other races despite their vastly superior weapon techs.

It doesn't help that vasari bombers are also the hardest to kill- but the core of the problem lies with phase missiles.  

That said though, while the Advent feel it most keenly, I don't think the problem is unique to them.  the fact of the matter is that Vasari Bombers hit the critical mass necessary to be flying-doom for any capitalship at a substantially lower number of carriers then the other factions.  And being that bombers in general are already eternally straddling the line between balanced and too strong, having one faction's bombers head and shoulders above the others seems a poor balance proposition.

The changes to the VR starbase seem to be in the right direction.  I agree that we should play test this update for awhile, as I think the nerfs brought by v1.04 and v1.1 should effectively bring VR back in balance.

Also, it appears Wail has been effectively nerfed into oblivion.  Not quite sure I agree with the change, and I'm a Vasari player that has been on the wrong end of Wail multiple times.

I'm mainly an Advent Rebel player, and I think that's going to be an exaggeration. As long as your fleet is at the planet you trigger wail at it is still perfectly safe to use. Maybe a fully upgraded terran might be a threat to structures, but anything less can certainly tank the damage from it, especially with repair bays and shield bestowal. All this change does is give you a chance to really screw yourself or an ally over if you're not paying attention, or if you're trying to retreat into wail range and an enemy fleet is chasing you.

Wait, you are saying the AR fleet will be safe AT the Wailed planet?

Well, that's how wail works now, the only thing that happens at the planet where wail was used is the planet is destroyed. All players are safe if they are at this planet in the current implementation. I interpreted that change as meaning that when wail damages ships at all adjacent gravity wells, it will damage all players ships. As it is currently, only enemy ships are damaged by wail.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.  I haven't played with it much since I've been back.  It is banned most of the time online anyhow, so I have only been on the receiving end a few times and didn't realize the planet of origin was safe.

Yar, origin planet is safe (except for the sacrificed population of course).

Does it still kill the planet nop matter what?

Back in Beta you could avoid loosing the planet to wail with Enduring Devotion on a Transcenia Starbase. Population was still reduced to zero but you kept the planet and with it all upgrades on it. 

Now the planet is always totally lost, making Enduring Devotion of somewhat limited use for Advent Rebel.

If it would not be to much work, I would have an idea for possible future Wail changes:

Current implementation:

Wail = Planet lost

Wail + Enduring Devotion = Planet lost

My idea:

Wail = Planet lost

Wail + Enduring Devotion = Planet lost but 25 % extra damage for Wail.

Just a thought.